Brian Kurtz 7:01
And so are you going to share screen slides or no, you’re going to Yes. So I just want to make sure that we have a good setup for whatever you know you’re going to discuss. So what, I always ask this, like, what you have some qualifications to talk about, because of your Asian background, because you’ve experienced it bigly. But what other talk about who you coach now, specifically, you said it was corporate and CEOs, but in any particular niche, any particular area that you specialize in, so people can get a little more context and then share screen whenever you want.
Jule Kim 7:50
Yeah, thank you. So I mainly work with executives or aspiring executives, particularly the women who are trying to go from that senior director title to a VP title, or some C level title. Generally, these people will get feedback that they didn’t get the promotion because they lack confidence and they’re too accessible, they’re too approachable, they’re too accommodating. So something I don’t really cover in today’s presentation is that imposter syndrome and pleasing people tend to go hand in hand. So all of my clients, I’m not lying, are people pleasers as well. So it’s a little bit of a fun time here. But in terms of my certifications, I am a certified ICF coach. I’m also a certified imposter syndrome coach.
Brian Kurtz 8:34
How do you get it? How do you get qualified to be an imposter syndrome coach?
Jule Kim 8:39
Well, one of the world’s foremost experts on imposter syndrome. I’m saying like this lady, she literally wrote the first book on imposter syndrome, Dr Valerie young, she opened her very first program to start certifying people to be experts and specialists in the topic. I think back in 2022 and so I got to be in her debut program, like the very first cohort she ever had. So, you know, there will be a lot of people out there who will say they’re certified imposter syndrome coaches. They may have gone through a program, but I’m like, Hey, I went through the program with the very first lady on the scene. So that’s kind of my tie.
Brian Kurtz 9:16
I love it. I love it. Is there are there letters that go next to your name to be an imposter syndrome coach,
Jule Kim 9:20
Not for the imposter syndrome coach, but for to be an ICF-certified coach. I’m a PCC, a professional.
Brian Kurtz 9:27
Yes, exactly. Yeah. I think that’s neat. You learn something new every day, and that’s wonderful that you are like a certified imposter syndrome coach. We got the right person here, so that’s great.
Jule Kim 9:37
Yeah, thank you. All right, so thank you for having me like I said, the topic is very near and dear to my heart. What I found that was the hardest the day I found out what imposter syndrome was, it was both a huge feeling of relief. Because then I got to understand there was nothing wrong with me, the feelings that I’d been having, that I was trying very hard to run away from, there was nothing wrong with me. But at the same time, I was really mad, like I was so angry, because to realize that I had just spent the last two years in the position I was in because of this, and just because I hadn’t known about it, there’s not a lot of awareness yet. I think imposter syndrome has hit the mainstream. Is kind of a buzzword, but I still meet more people, more than 50% of the people that I come across, they have no idea, especially if they’re a little bit older. So 50 plus, even more. So they won’t know. They’ve never heard the term anyway, but before I got into it, so this is my husband. His name is Jason. Jason and I used to share an office because we both work from home. His desk is in the left corner and I have mine in the right corner.
We both take meetings on Zoom, but when I take a meeting, I go into another room, which is here, whereas he just takes his meetings at his desk. And so because of this, like I’ve asked him so many times to turn his laptop to the wall, okay, so that it faces the wall and not the entire room. He doesn’t do this. One day, I come into the office and I see he’s already in a meeting, and I have to get to my desk, but I don’t want to walk across the screen on his video. Don’t, don’t ask me why. I was just very neurotic. Okay, I didn’t like the idea of his teammates or people seeing me, and now Jason uses a standing desk so it sets up higher. So I have this real bright idea that I’m going to drop to the floor and I’m going to crawl to my desk, and I’m thinking, you know, no one’s going to see me, problem solved. So I’m crawling my way across the floor on my hands and knees, and I’m almost at my desk when my husband suddenly turns around and goes, What are you doing?
So I looked up at the screen and realized I had been visible the entire freaking time, and his teammates had watched me crawl across the floor the whole way, and one of them even says trying not to be seen, huh? So not my finest moment. You know, here I was thinking I was being clever, totally missing the mark. So I felt really exposed. And for anyone who feels imposter syndrome, this feeling is kind of the worst nightmare. We will do anything to avoid being exposed or being discovered. So I’m a certified imposter syndrome coach, and today I’m going to tell you all about imposter syndrome. It’s shaped my life in so many ways behind the scenes, and I never knew so you know, this is the reason I spent so long making no money in my previous business. It’s the reason why I’ve turned down countless opportunities, and it is the reason why so many people today will do the same, they will shy away from opportunities, or they have the idea and they just never get started. Now, what percent of people in general, do you think feel imposter syndrome? Just call it out. Anybody. Do you have your choices?
Brian Kurtz 13:21
I would say 70 to 90%
Jule Kim 13:24
Okay. Does anybody not agree with Brian?
Charlene 13:32
Okay, I’ll I’ll be the disagreeable of 45 to 69%
Jule Kim 13:39
Okay. Thank you, Charlene. So Brian is actually correct. We have people in studies self reporting more than 70% of the time. And you know, earlier, Brian said, I think everybody feels imposter syndrome, and if you say you don’t, you’re lying. Kind of reminded me of Adam Grant saying the only people who don’t feel imposter syndrome are narcissists. So there you go, yeah?
Brian Kurtz 14:01
Adam, yeah. I remember that from Adam, absolutely.
Jule Kim 14:07
Okay. Now, what about this one? Somebody not Brian, who wants to take a guess, which of these groups in the US have the highest rate of imposter syndrome, self reported anyone? I think I’m Asian. I want to say Asian.
Brian Kurtz 14:38
Okay, and see, I’m going to say African Americans, but that’s because I see a lot of them talking about how they have to mask so they don’t like to be called African Americans. They like to call black Americans. Well, some do, and some don’t. Yeah, I think Asians don’t talk much, and it’s like the problems largely go on unnoticed, because it’s just. Very, very close statistically irrelevant segment, especially when we go into microversion.
Jule Kim 15:10
Yes. Okay, so you’re both correct. Thank you. We do have Asian Americans coming in number one for self reporting feelings of imposter syndrome and Prateek in particular, you are correct. Mental wellness, mental health is very much a stigma in Asian cultures, so you’ve got a further barrier to overcome. Most Asian Americans I know of, have never heard of the term, which is why I think when I did a podcast episode last year, some of you may have listened to it. I put the link in the Facebook group. I was overwhelmed. It was like a tidal wave of Asian Americans reaching out to me, or, you know, other people as well, but just so many Asians reaching out to me, saying, Thank you so much for describing this. I didn’t know what I was feeling, okay. So this was me, obviously, kind of gave it away, giving you my story. Asian American right here. Korean grew up in Alabama.
Okay? Now, in terms of what imposter syndrome is actually like official imposter syndrome as defined by the very first people who ever wrote about it, by Dr and then followed up by Dr Valerie young, it has three main elements. Okay, so do not confuse impostor syndrome with just doubting yourself. There is a clear difference, and I’ll show you in a little bit why. So imposter syndrome is, number one, feeling like a fraud and having the fear that you’re going to be discovered at any moment. And the reason why you have this is because you have a compulsive habit of explaining away success. Now, in terms of explaining away success, who thinks they have some idea of what this looks like or what this sounds like, I think many of you probably do this in your daily life. Okay? Okay, so while maybe some of you are thinking about this, I have a little story. I have a friend. Her name is Benny. She doesn’t work.
So I’ve been friends with this woman for over a year, and I noticed she was around any time I wanted to call her almost any time her schedule was completely available. And I was like, how, how is this possible? And then one day, the subject finally came up, because I asked her about it. I’m like, What are you doing every day? Like, you don’t, you don’t go to a job. Like, do you have something? Are you selling courses? Like, what is this? It turns out she has passive income and real estate. And I’m like, wow, you’re living the dream, man, like you’re not working. You have money coming in, so you get to do whatever you want, like your time is yours.And it turns out that she researched for quite a while to invest in real estate, and then the crazy thing is, when I tell her, she’s living the dream, and this is so amazing, she goes, Oh, this is this was nothing like I got lucky. And then she was, like, I was just in the right place at the right time. And I was like, you researched the real estate market for over a year, and you saved up for 10 years to come up with the capital to invest.
And you think you got lucky, like what? And then she just continues. She continues and says, no, no, seriously, if I can do it, anyone can. And literally, she’s going down this list, saying all of these. And we reach this point where I say, What are you doing? And she goes, What do you mean? And I say, you realize you are trying really hard to put yourself down, and it was just this moment, like the shocked silence. She doesn’t like hearing that, and she’s like, I’ve never thought of it like that. So you’re looking at some of the most common phrases for the constant explaining away of your success. It’s a constant downplaying, constantly dismissing what you’ve done. And this is what really starts leading to those feelings of imposter Ness, like you’re some kind of fraud because you’re not owning it. Now I’m going to get into the five types of imposter syndrome, and when I say the five types, I’ll show you what I mean. But just keep in mind that, in general, the person who is feeling a little bit impostery is generally kind of feeling like this, like you are trying very hard to avoid being discovered, to not be crushed, that feeling like the shoe is going to drop, or the other shoe is going to drop.
This is all feeding into the same types of feelings. So as I go through the rest of the presentation the five imposter syndrome types, I want you to make a note and just keep asking yourself, How does this manifest for me? So here’s the next one. This person feels like I could have done better. Like always, I always feel like I could have done better. What’s your best guess? Perfectionists? Okay, I see them scrolling in, yeah. A lot of perfectionists, yeah. So yes, you are right. So this is the person, and this is where I will say versus how we think of it. In the mainstream, perfectionism in imposter syndrome, like the tie in, is a little bit more specific. So the true perfectionist is somebody who will not settle for less than 100% so I’m talking about this is a person where they get a 99% a 98% and they will focus on that missing 2% this is a person who will say, I didn’t get 100 therefore I failed.
And now what I see as the number one mistake most people make is they will confuse perfectionism with the pursuit of excellence. They’re not the same. So while they share this desire to improve, the type of energy coming from is very different. The person who is in the pursuit of excellence will continue to strive for improvement, continue to strive for excellence, while understanding that what they have in the moment is good enough. Okay, so keep that in mind. The perfectionist will say I didn’t get 100% therefore I failed. I’m a failure. This whole thing is garbage. I must start over again. It’s completely different energy, and because of this sort of mindset, they can be a nightmare to work with. This is the person who tends to be a micromanager, because not only do they have these perfectionistic standards for themselves, they also hold them for others, especially for direct reports, because they see direct reports as a reflection of themselves.
Brian Kurtz 22:15
Can I ask a question here? So there was a question in the chat about where does humility fit into all of this? And it does fit in somewhere, I’m sure. But the thing that I was thinking about here, it just happened to me when a party was complimenting my book, and I couldn’t take the compliment, and then I had to catch myself before the end of that conversation to thank him, what where? And I learned this maybe 20 years ago, when I got what I thought was an unjustified standing ovation at a conference, and I didn’t take it in like and so, but I don’t see myself as a perfectionist, though. So where? And I don’t know if anybody else feels this or not. I don’t know. I’m not just saying this about me. I’m saying there’s a feeling of like, whatever the I just think I’m needy, maybe or something. But I, I, I see that no matter how much people would applaud, it wasn’t enough. Where does that fit into that I could have always done better.
Jule Kim 23:38
Well, let me ask you this, though, not enough in what way
Brian Kurtz 23:44
I thought I fell short, and they’re giving me applause, and I didn’t think I deserved it. So maybe it has to do with whether I just, whether I think I deserve it or not. And I’m sure people feel that too. Um, I don’t know.
Jule Kim 24:04
Yeah, so that is actually pretty common, not just for the perfectionist, for people, but for people in general. But the I could have done better, the I don’t deserve, this does align a little bit more closely with the perfectionist. But remember when I said, even before you get to feelings of imposter syndrome, there is the constant downplaying and the comment you mentioned in the chat earlier. We also tend to confuse humility, confidence and arrogance. We think being confident is also being arrogant, and that’s also not the case. No, definitely not right? And so just real quick to clear up this mystery, if any of us in the group are also having this the definition of being humble means that you are fully aware of the reality that is yourself.
Okay. You’re able to recognize your strengths and also your weaknesses without over inflating any factor or diminishing. Any factor that played a part in your success. And so the arrogant person will say, I did it all on my own. I never had any help, never needed any help, which is, of course, a bold face lie. You. No one gets to where they are without some help. The confident person, the confident and humble person, will say, Yeah, I’ve had a lot of great mentors along the way, like Brian Kurtz and I’ve put in the work to leverage these learnings towards my success. The person with imposter syndrome will say something like, I only got hired because they were meeting their diversity quota.
Okay, so that diversity quota statement is an example of diminishing your own effort, whereas the arrogant person is over inflating the factor you know that they played in their success. So all of this is very closely related, and you may not see yourself as a perfectionist, and you probably aren’t, but there’s also something else at play, is a lot of people their self image does not match with other people’s images of who they are, and so when you have those moments like the standing ovation or people congratulating you, it can be like a real dissonance, like that moment, which will then trigger, oh, like, Stop, shut up, you know. And I will actually address that later. So, thank you.
Brian Kurtz 26:14
Yeah, because I think, I think the thing I learned was that you must, you have to, like, physically acknowledge, you know, if you don’t acknowledge it in the moment and let it go past, then you can’t get any benefit from it, not benefit in terms of taking advantage or anything like that, but to be able to get some benefit from it so you can build on something, as opposed to just building on sand, when you just say, Oh, that does that didn’t mean anything. That was whatever. And I had to learn that. I mean, I had to learn that over 20 years. My first 20 years took me a long time to acknowledge accolades. Took me a long time.
Jule Kim 26:57
Well, I think a lot of us can relate to that. And so there is a cultural component as well. Like, I don’t know your background, but in many cultures, to just accept the compliment is considered arrogant, like you have a big head. So that is something a lot of us have to actively unlearn. Sometimes,
Brian Kurtz 27:13
I’m Jewish, and there is something in there, you know, someone put something in about the Jewish mother syndrome. You know, if you’re not a doctor or a lawyer, then you’re a failure kind of thing. And, you know, there’s a lot of that goes on in every culture. I’m not saying just Jewish, but in my, in my Jewish culture, there was a lot of that. It’s like, you know, if you’re not going to be a doctor, a lawyer and or an accountant, you’re a loser. And you know, it’s, um, it’s something that you need to tune out, or else you’re gonna be in this what you’re talking about in your life forever I think.
Jule Kim 27:55
Yeah, exactly. And of course, doctor, lawyer, engineer is the typical Asian triad. There you go, very similar. So just keep these in mind. Okay, so that’s one of the sort of triggers you’ve identified. So keep all of this in mind in terms of where these feelings kind of originate from. So most of us aren’t born, or, I would say, probably none of us are born with this feeling of, I’m not good enough. I should be somebody different. I should blah, blah, blah. You know, most of that comes from the external world, so just keep these things in mind. Make a note. I would encourage you to take notes of what comes up for you, like as you’re listening to this. Okay, so let’s go on to the next type.
Outro 28:40
Thanks for listening to the Timeless Marketing Podcast with Brian Kurtz. Visit briankurtz.net, and click podcast at the top of the page for a full transcript and show notes. If you’re interested in working with Brian personally inside of Titans Xcelerator, go to Briankurtz.net/help to see how Titans can help you grow and scale your business. That’s B-R-I-A-N Kurtz [dot] net [slash] help.